[computer beep] COMPUTER: A temporal anomaly has occurred. Program detected, Salamander Babies 018, Nemesis, recorded March 28th 2018. Program initiated. Enter when ready. [Salamander Babies theme plays] JENN: Welcome to Salamander Babies, home of the Salamander Baby, may I take your order? JIM: Who are you? [crew laughs] JENN: Jenn Marshall, Holodeck Programmer. JIM: Quantum Anarchist Jim Gold. MARIO: I'm Temporal Timekeeper Mario Panighetti. LOU: Chief Philosophy Officer Lou Gold. I got it right! Yay! MARIO: You did it in one! JENN: And this is Salamander Babies, where we are discussing episode "Nemesis", which is season 5, episode 4. 44? [crew laughs] JIM: Season 4, episode 4. JENN: Season 4, episode 4. MARIO: Just a lot of fours. [transition theme plays] JENN: Nemesis. MARIO: Cool, so Tom Harding, and uh... JIM: Ron Perlman. JENN: Yes. Yes. MARIO: Together again, finally. JENN: Chakotay is stranded on a planet, and he falls in quickly with the local militia there, who are fighting a fierce foe. But of course, that's not all! [laughs] MARIO: It's not much more. JIM: We'll get to it all, though. LOU: When you said he "falls in", I was waiting for you to say "love". [crew laughs] JIM: Falls in love with a twelve year-old. JENN: With a twelve year-old militant girl. LOU: To be fair, she was a hologram. Or something. JENN: She was [?] for sure. I get it. I would have done the same thing when I was her age. MARIO: Oh, from her perspective. JENN: Sure. MARIO: Got it, okay. LOU: She's not real! [crew laughs] MARIO: Well yeah, it's a TV show. JIM: Well we'll get to that. LOU: Spoiler alert. JENN: Yeah. JIM: Spoilers. JENN: You can't spoil a twenty year-old episode. MARIO: Where to start? JIM: Where TO start? I think we should start with the language. JENN: Okay. JIM: Because- MARIO: Constant profanity, start to finish. JIM: From us. [crew laughs] JENN: I totally blocked that out when I chose this episode, because, like, the different language patterns when people try to use it, and things, really bothers me. Like always, it bothers me. And so I must have just blocked that out of my memory. 'Cause man, it sucks. JIM: [laughs] It was really grating. JENN: It doesn't make you sound more interesting. It doesn't make the writers sound like better writers. It just... LOU: So I had seen this episode by chance maybe a year ago, and I'd forgotten about the speech patterns. But I did remember hating the quote-unquote "good guys" for a really long time, and I couldn't remember why. And then as soon as the first one opened his [censored] mouth [crew laughs], I was like, oh, that's right. JENN: There it is. JIM: Yeah, we were discussing it while watching the episode, as we are wont to do. And it seemed like it was just one of the writers' jobs to go through the script they had written, and replace everything with like the third-place synonym from the thesaurus. MARIO: It was rough and stilted. JIM: Yeah. JENN: "No no no, that line is way too straightforward, you need to go back and change that." JIM: Yeah. And all the while, we were like, the universal translator is just [censored] with him. Like, it knows what this shit means. JENN: Yep. I wonder if it's like, because they're speaking- maybe they are speaking English words, but the translator doesn't pick up on the weirdness of their phrases, 'cause it's like "that's an English word." MARIO: But it would have to. Like it would have to understand that they're using the alternate wording of a lot of these words, which means it needs to know exactly what they're saying. JENN: Yeah. But still, it's in English. So do you really have to translate it? MARIO: Well I guess that's the question: does the universal translator translate and colloquialize? JENN: Hmm. MARIO: 'Cause if it was supposed to make it match, like, the listener's understanding, like, I could see that being one thing. JENN: Sure. MARIO: It seemed like it very intentionally chose these other vocabulary words that you don't hear from other aliens. LOU: So, in other episodes, and I can't think of any examples, there have been instances of idioms and innuendos. Like the, um, bird-people episode. All the flirtations with Bird-Wife. [crew laughs] MARIO: Bird-Wife the Bird-Person. LOU: And Tom. There was the ability to do innuendos and stuff like that. So the universal translator is capable of it, but maybe for this one species it was a little on the fritz. Or maybe they just have a terrible language with idioms that don't quite do it. JENN: Yeah. JIM: The issue that we're sort of brushing over is the fact that the universal translator is a writing conceit, just to make it believable that aliens would speak English. JENN: That's true. MARIO: Well, and to simplify conversing within a 40-minute episode. JIM: Yeah. MARIO: You kinda have to jump over the fact that the characters need to understand what the other characters are saying. Unless it's a plot point. LOU: By the way, major shoutout to Enterprise for actually dealing with linguistical problems. MARIO: You mean Next Gen? LOU: No, no, Enterprise. JIM: Enterprise had, uh- MARIO: Oh yeah! JIM: A comm officer, a linguist. LOU: Yeah, they had a [censored] linguist on the show, and it would take them awhile to figure out how to communicate. MARIO: Right, they had a human universal translator. LOU: And I get that this takes place a lot earlier than this, but still. JIM: And that was consistent with Uhura, right? LOU: Hmm? JIM: That was part of Uhura's job in TOS. LOU: Yeah. JENN: I wonder if Chakotay adopting this weirdo-speak is kind of, like, an early clue - not to jump to spoiler alert - an early clue of his indoctrination-slash-brainwashing. It's like, oh, you picked up on that awfully fast. MARIO: I could believe that, but I've also seen him do that under normal circumstances. [crew laughs] JENN: Yeahhhhh. LOU: He's just highly influenceable. MARIO: Yeah. I think it's like when someone goes to the UK and then picks up an accent. JENN: Like Madonna? MARIO: It's just what he does. LOU: I've done that in the South after like four days. JENN: Yeah, same. LOU: It's terrible. MARIO: Let's hear it. LOU: No. MARIO: Awww. [laughs] LOU: Like, I can't do it NOW. JENN: I do it too. 100%. JIM: Performance anxiety? LOU: Well no, I just don't do impressions. You guys have seen me DM, I don't role-play and make voices. JIM: As somebody who also does not role-play in D&D, yeah, that's true, and I totally respect that. MARIO: Fair. But I'm going with you next time you're going to the South. LOU: 'Kay. Let's do it. JIM: Going back to Vicksburg. JENN: Yeah, if I ever get back to England, I'm totally gonna have one of those Madonna accents. It's gonna be very fashionable. JIM: I'm sure they'll love it. JENN: Yes. They better. MARIO: They'll be impressed. JENN: I've been practicing. MARIO: But yeah, I think in his efforts to be respectful of other cultures, he ends up just, like, miming them a lot. JENN: Yeah, I could see that. I think, yeah, that's an explanation as well. MARIO: Which ends up coming out as condescending. LOU: Yeah. MARIO: It's like, "oh, the Hereafter." You don't believe that. [crew laughs] JENN: He was rolling people on their faces like a pro. MARIO: And they were dead, so there's no one to impress. JIM: I get the impression that he was just guessing. LOU: Yeah. JIM: He was like, "I'm not sure..." MARIO: I think he saw them do it previously. JIM: Oh, okay. MARIO: There was a ceremony that he took part in. LOU: I think it would be funny if he actually kept that. Like, he really adopted that cultural thing. So they get back to the Alpha Quadrant, then he dies, and in his will, it's like "all right, you need to turn me over, so I can go to the..." [crew laughs] LOU: And everyone else in the crew is like "what the [censored] is he talking about?" JENN: "Smoosh my face into the ground." JIM: Yep. MARIO: "Sorry guys, I'm just much more cultural now that I've been out in the Delta Quadrant. I picked up a few new things." JENN: "You wouldn't understand." [laughs] MARIO: "When you're as well-traveled as I am." JENN: "It was from my time amongst the Voti," or whatever they call them. JIM: The Vori? JENN: The Vori, yes. MARIO: The Roti. LOU: The Roti? JENN: Yeah, you're thinking about Indian food. [crew laughs] MARIO: I mean yeah. LOU: I'm just, I loved Tuvok being like "you are Chakotay. You are a scientist." And I was just like, he's an anthropologist. [crew laughs] JENN: Yeah. MARIO: Sorry to all the anthropologist listeners. JENN: I mean it's totally not a Tuvok thing, but he should have been like "you're a colossal pain in my ass." MARIO: "Shake it off." JENN: And he'd be like "ooooh, Tuvok." JIM: What was the deal with- why did Chakotay think that Tuvok looked like one of the whatever-people? MARIO: They were manipulating his brain, so I think it was actually a hallucination. JENN: Yeah, the Doctor said that at the end. It's like a specific- JIM: Oh, okay. MARIO: To make any of the combatants look specifically like the enemy. JENN: Yeah. LOU: Although it was pointed out, I forget exactly who here pointed it out, but the clothing that Tuvok was wearing was needlessly- JIM: Yeah. It was the enemy clothing. But the enemies also look like the enemies. JENN: Yeah, that's also- that's weird. JIM: It's a weird part of the brainwashing. JENN: Yeah. MARIO: But wouldn't they look like that anyway? JIM: Yeah. MARIO: Why is he brainwashed to think that everyone who isn't the Vori are enemies? JIM: Yeah. MARIO: And specifically that alien race. JENN: Like how many people are stopping by this planet? MARIO: Yeah, there aren't a lot of third parties in this conflict. JIM: Yeah, it's just very strange. MARIO: Do only the warriors look like that, and maybe that's what it's doing to make him kill civilians too? I dunno. LOU: Well, what if the- I mean, the only actual- I don't, I wasn't paying attention, so I don't know the species name. JIM: It's probably for the best. MARIO: This was a problem with some of us, I think, in this episode. JIM: Yeah. JENN: The Not-sicans. [crew laughs] JIM: Yes. Yes! We're gonna call them the Not-sicans from now on. LOU: All right, so the only ones that we actually saw were the [censored] diplomats. JIM AND MARIO: Yeah. LOU: So we don't know what their soldier class looks like. So Tuvok was actually wearing a diplomat's outfit when he was walking around. MARIO: It still doesn't explain why he changed clothes, and he doesn't address it. JIM: Yeah. MARIO: I'm pretty sure Chakotay even asks him straight out, "why are you wearing the clothes of the enemy?" And he's like "they're not the enemy." So he just avoids the question entirely. [crew laughs] LOU: Tuvok's like "I like it, it's fashionable." JENN: "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!" JIM: [laughs] Yeah. MARIO: "Now listen, it's my size exactly, I couldn't turn it down!" JIM: "This incredibly heavy clothing just makes sense in this dense jungle..." MARIO: Jungle climate?? LOU: Hey. The crotch is very breathable. [crew laughs] JIM: I guess that's something. JENN: Yeah, no, that doesn't make any sense. [crew laughs] JENN: It doesn't make any sense at all. 'Cause you'd think- MARIO: That would only help the illusion. JENN: Yeah, you would think you would want him to, like, see you. So it's just, like, wear your regular clothes, Tuvok. Mr. Logic. JIM: Yeah. And Tuvok could have just stunned him. MARIO AND LOU: Yeah. JIM: Like, Chakotay has a [censored] rifle. JENN: That's true. JIM: And threatens to kill Tuvok and number of times. MARIO: A live weapon. JIM: It's much more logical just to stun him right there and beam him up. LOU: True. But let's imagine the scenario if Tom had actually gone to collect Chakotay. [crew laughs] JENN: Oh my gosh. MARIO: Was Tom even in this episode? LOU: Yeah, he was like "I'll go!" MARIO: Oh. LOU: And they're like- and Tuvok's like "no man, I got this." JENN: Yeah, it's sad. MARIO: "Let's be real here." LOU: Yeah. Like how bad would that have gone if it was Tom? JENN: I'm kinda surprised that it wasn't Janeway who came to collect him. LOU: Yeah. JIM: Yeah, they would send the captain on an away mission like that. JENN: Some of them. MARIO: They did with "The Chute". She just goes in phaser rifle blasting. JIM: [laughs] Yeah, that's true. JENN: Chakotay was alone for some reason. Riddle me that. LOU: Actually, thinking about it: is Tuvok the right person to send? JIM: No! LOU: Because Chakotay didn't like Tuvok for so long, because he was the [censored] mole. JENN: Yeah, send B'Elanna. Send Janeway. Send literally anyone else. LOU: Yeah. JIM: Or just beam him up without actually sending anybody. JENN: I think that was the thing, like, there- JIM: They had to find him, right? JENN: There was, like, the interference thing, or whatever, like- MARIO: There was the throwaway line about not being able to scan for him or something. JENN: Yeah. MARIO: So even if they knew where he was, they couldn't... something something. JIM: Eh. JENN: Yeah, they had to go down there for reals, but they did not have to change their outfits. [crew laughs] MARIO: They have to. JENN: That doesn't make any sense. MARIO: "Uh, it's interference! I need to have a different shirt on." JENN: "Yeah, weird." [laughs] MARIO: "What are ya gonna do?" LOU: I would kinda love it though, if it was just, like, a really shiny shirt. If there was actually an explanation of "sorry, this is to deflect the gamma... photons..." [crew laughs] JIM: You're actually taking- MARIO: Even more psychotropic radiation now. JIM: Yep. JENN: Fab-u-lous! That would be awesome, if their outfits were, like, really cool. [laughs] Tuvok's just like "yeah. Shut up, lay off." MARIO: That's how they convince people to stay! JENN: [laughs] Yeah! MARIO: "Look at our wardrobe! Way better than the enemy's." JENN: "That shiny shirt, that's mine." [laughs] MARIO: [laughs] He hallucinates so the enemy wears, like, clashing top and bottom. "I don't want that!" JIM: Stripes and polka dots. JENN: Aaaaah! That's why they're the enemy. MARIO: [laughs] "Monsters! Beasts!" JENN: Yeah, seriously. JIM: "The nemesis!" [crew laughs] JENN: But yeah, it does turn out that Chakotay was brainwashed into fighting these other people's war. MARIO: We've really cut to the chase in this synopsis. [crew laughs] JIM: There isn't a whole lot to the episode! JENN: Yeah, I like to keep to the code. JIM: There's like, once you- MARIO: Well especially once you get to the point of realizing - spoiler alert - that it was all a hallucination, and all the things they told him about their culture- JIM: They're horseshit. MARIO: -could not even be real possibly? JIM AND JENN: Yeah. MARIO: It kinda makes you dismiss everything you saw as being significant. JENN: Well yeah. JIM: Like, part of what I got from it also was, I think it's likely that the training program just mimics the physiology of whatever person they're trying to brainwash. MARIO: Oooh. 'Cause I think you had asked why they all look like humans. JIM: Yeah. MARIO: And it just felt like the copout of, oh, lower-budget, make them all look like humans, or make them more sympathizable, but maybe that's part of the program. JIM: Yeah. JENN: That would make it more interesting. JIM: So, if Bird-Person gets stranded on the planet, everybody looks like a bird-person. LOU: All of them have 80s bird hair. JIM AND JENN: Yeah. MARIO: Like 80s birds. [crew laughs] LOU: Yeah. JIM: And slinky nightwear. That's just how they roll. JENN: Yep. MARIO: And regular Earth dogs. [crew laughs] JIM: Yeah. Pomeranians or whatever. MARIO: Little terriers. JIM: I mean, Andorians. [crew laughs] JIM: But yeah, no, I mean, that is- I don't think it was intentional. But I think that's one of the things about this story that was kinda interesting, and kinda compelling. JENN: Mmhmm. JIM: But I really don't think it was intentional. MARIO: No, I don't think so at all. JENN: Yeah, no, that does make it a lot more interesting though, it's a fun headcanon. LOU: Mmhmm. MARIO: Considering most of the creative effort was put into the vocabulary... [crew laughs] JENN AND LOU: Yeah. JIM: Oh god. LOU: "My mother's father! Noooo!" MARIO: [laughs] There's a word! [crew laughs] JIM: "No, Daughter's-Daughter!" MARIO: I like when they had to back up, and they said "backwalk" as one word. [crew laughs] JIM: Yeah. MARIO: I'm like, you invented a word just to not say the other word! [transition theme plays] LOU: Do we wanna talk about, like, the serious theme of the episode? That when we were watching- I remembered that the last line of the, um, you know, "I wish that it was-" JENN: "I wish that it was as easy to stop hating as it is to start"? LOU: Yeah. MARIO: That was such a bullshit line. LOU: I remember hearing that and being like, oh, that's pretty good for Voyager, and that, like, stuck with- MARIO: [laughs] No it's not! LOU: Shut up! And that, like, stuck with me for a little while. I was like, okay, sure. Yeah. JENN: It's pretty good for an after-school special. MARIO: Lou, did it make you think? LOU: Not really, no. But I was like, oh, they hit, like, a theme. 'Cause like, some episodes, they don't have any [censored] moral to the story. And was like, yeah, okay. JIM: There's barely a mystery usually. LOU: And so we were watching it, you guys were like "uuuuggggghh, [censored] eye roll-" [crew laughs] JIM: Yeah, Mario and I at the end, I think we both groaned. [laughs] MARIO: Yeah. JENN: [laughs] Well you know that 21 year-old MFA student was like "Yes!" [crew laughs] JIM: "Score!" MARIO: "Hit the theme!" JENN: "People are gonna remember this for decades!" MARIO: Well I think Jim even called the twist at, like, the 10-minute mark. [laughs] JENN: Yes, yes. MARIO: He's like "these people are too annoying, it's gotta be that they're the bad guys." [laughs] LOU: There was the ambiguous statement- the ambiguous description of the enemy. JIM AND JENN: Yeah. MARIO: By their actions and not by their appearances. JIM AND LOU: Yep. MARIO: "They're beasts!" JIM: And usually when they talk to some ambassador or something like that, they'll have it on the viewscreen. LOU: Yeah. JIM: But they just, like, they talk about the communications that they had with the ambassador, and they don't wanna show it. JENN: Yeah, they're trying to keep the gag going for as long as they can. JIM: Yeah. MARIO: And they did. They kept the reveal to the exact moment they wanted. But it was all laid out so plainly. JIM: Yeah. And it was, like, one of the most reveals that they could have done. [laughs] And it was, like, ahhhhhhh, like, it would have been interesting if they had played it completely straight, and the Not-sicans were actually the bad guys. But no. [laughs] MARIO: Yeah. LOU: They were actually the bad guys, but Voyager had to get their guy out some way. Eh. JIM: Yeah, maybe. MARIO: And Janeway even acknowledges that, where Chakotay talks about the war crimes he was told, and she was like "I dunno, that's not saying anything about the other guys, so let's just get out of here." [crew laughs] JIM: Yeah. That actually reminds me of the episode where, who was it, I think it was Harry and Tom were accused of the terrorist bombing? LOU: Yeah. JIM: And, like, Voyager tracks down the actual terrorists- LOU: Yep, that was "The Chute". MARIO: That was "The Chute", yeah. JIM: Oh okay, yeah yeah yeah, thank you. I'm sorry, I didn't even remember the [censored] name of the episode that I picked. And like, at the end, they were just like "oh I guess we're letting these terrorists go." MARIO AND JENN: [laughs] Yeah. JIM: "Like, we know that they committed this horrible atrocity. But [censored] those people too, so..." MARIO: "We're not the Space Police. Prime Directive, whatever, let's move on." JIM: [laughs] Yeah. JENN: It's like "we're at 43 out of 45 minutes, we gotta wrap it up." [crew laughs] MARIO: "We don't have enough time left in the episode to care, soooo..." JIM: "Yeah, we need those two minutes for a Sickbay scene, and that's it." JENN: [laughs] Yep. MARIO: A really deep-cutting message about prejudice. JIM: [laughs] Yeah. MARIO: I think we all learned an important lesson, guys, JENN: Yeah. JIM: Sure did: stay off drugs. MARIO: Yeah, that was the lesson, right? Stay off drugs? JIM: Yep. JENN: That was not the lesson I got from it. MARIO: Oh shit. It wasn't "stay off drugs"? So I should- JENN: Yeah, no, don't tell me what to do with my drugs! MARIO: Oh, fair. [laughs] This is California. JENN: Yeah. LOU: Yeah. But this episode- I'm, like, trying to find something- this episode reminded me of The Original Series one, where they're the two guys that are split white and black- MARIO: Yeah, "his face is black on the right side." LOU: Yeah. It's that version but for Voyager. MARIO: Yeah, which was forgivable because it was the 60s [laughs] and they were still figuring out how to tell allegorical stories on television. [crew laughs] JENN: Yeah, it's, like, trying to be a Twilight Zone episode, but it's far too heavy-handed, for even The Twilight Zone, it's just like- JIM: Ooooh yeah. MARIO: Oh yeah. JIM: Actually, in addition to all that -because all that, yeah, it makes sense- it kinda reminds me of The Forever War, where like, basically, there's just this ongoing interstellar war. So in- are you guys familiar with The Forever War? JENN: No. MARIO: It's a novel? JIM: Yeah. MARIO: Okay. JIM: So it's a universe where faster-than-light travel does not exist, except for- MARIO: That's this universe. JIM: Oh shit. Well so- [crew laughs] LOU: Oh shit, it's a [censored] nonfiction book! MARIO: The twist is it's Earth all along! Sorry, sorry. JIM: I should say, that's not actually true, they do have, like, technology to jump through black holes, to other black holes. And so there is some FTL-type stuff- MARIO: Wormhole-type stuff. JIM: Yeah. But the book does get into, like, time dilation issues, because traveling to a black hole, you wind up having relativistic effects and all that. And so one of the effects of this is, essentially it means that launching any attack, it winds up preventing you from being able to negotiate a peace. Because you launch an attack, it arrives, like, 300 years in the future, and, like, exterminates a planet. And there's going to be some sort of retaliation for that. So it just winds up being this, like, as the title suggests, The Forever War. JENN: Hmm. JIM: That's one of the aspects of the novel. But, like, this episode kinda reminds me of that, because these training camps could be completely automated. MARIO: It seems like they were, they revisited the camp, and it did a program reset basically. JIM: Yep, exactly. And so, like, just every so often, some passing-by ship will get sucked in, and some trained person will pop out wanting to kill these people. MARIO: There's a Next Gen episode like that, I think in season 1, they stumble upon a planet where the people there created a defense system so good that it wiped them out, and then the program kept running. JIM: Mmhmm. MARIO: And it basically, like, it communicates to ships that pass by as like a sales pitch for this new weapons program. When people go down to the planet, it plays out the program and tries to kill everybody. JIM: Wow. LOU: That's pretty cool. To Jim's analogy to The Forever War, and the theory about the automated system, actually, if the people who were caught in it are so drugged out f their minds that Chakotay could recognize Tuvok as one of the enemies, who's to say that- well okay, I guess we technically saw a couple of them with the ambassador. But how many people are actually left, and are the people that are killing each other just people who fell onto the planet? MARIO: [laughs] The ambassador's like "yeah, there's these crazies who take drugs all the time and just live on this planet. We're not even there?" LOU: "Yeah, we just own the place." JIM: I think they actually mention that they recruit people and they wind up killing their compatriots? I could be wrong maybe. MARIO: I did tune out a couple of times. JENN: Yeah. JIM: Yeah, I did too, and so I'm suspecting that I tuned out half of a line. [laughs] So maybe I'm totally misinterpreting- like, hey, listeners, did you hear something about that? [crew laughs] MARIO: Did you guys pay attention? If so, write in. Let us know what they said. JIM: hellocomputer@salamanderbabies.com. JENN: Ba-dum-tssh. [transition theme plays] JENN: You were talking about how, like, walking into the program, the program boots up, and, like, indoctrinates an unsuspecting person into fighting this war that they weren't prepared to. Reminded me of Westworld. Like, just your average- what did they call them? Not "users"... LOU: "Guests". JENN: Guests, yeah. JIM: Yeah. JENN: Just your average guest walking into, like, a quest or something like that. Like, they were walking through town and someone's like "hey, you look like an able-bodied person, you wanna... help me wrangle up this dude?" JIM: "There's a snake in my boot!" [crew laughs] JENN: Exactly. LOU: There's an NPC standing with a giant exclamation point over their head. JENN: Yep! JIM: Exactly.
 MARIO: "Greetings, adventurer! Welcome to Corneria!" JENN: Basically. I really like how the show handles that, though. It's awesome, just like, oh, that's a quest line right there, I can tell. There's a lot of things that that show does really well. JIM: Yeah. The meta stuff when one of the guests who knows what's going on- JENN: Mmhmm. JIM: -is approached in that way- JENN: [laughs] Yes! JIM: -and they're just like "no, not today, it's fine." JENN: Yep! Yeah, like, William's brother who's just like "no, this is all bullshit, just don't pay attention to this." JIM: Yeah. "My daughter was kidnapped by bandits!" and he's like "yeah whatever, not today". JENN: [laughs] "Yeah ,whatever, whatever." MARIO: The speedrunner coming into Westworld. JIM: [laughs] Yeah. JENN: I like how he's all excited about finding- JIM: He's running backwards and jumping. MARIO: [laughs] Talking to the camera for his YouTube stream. "All right everyone, it's Programmer69 here with the latest speedrun attempt, going for the world record." [crew laughs] JENN: "Oh, there's Dolores, all right." LOU: "Dropped can, got it, okay, go." JENN: Yep. "Oh no, it's Ed Harris, he's a griefer!" [crew laughs] JENN: That's exactly how it would go down. JIM: I'm just imagining one of the prostitutes saying "speedrun is right". MARIO: [laughs] "We call him 'The Speedrunner' 'round these parts." JENN: "Ain't got much of a ride on you." I love everything about that show.
 JIM: It's good. JENN: Mmhmm. JIM: Unlike this episode! [crew laughs] MARIO: Unlike this garbage episode. JENN: I was gonna say, tune in next week to our Westworld podcast! MARIO: Oh wait, no final thoughts yet. Let me reserve my final thoughts for later. LOU: I like how there was that long pause where we all just were like "hmmmmmm". [crew laughs] JENN: Well it's like, the thing that I remembered mostly was that it was a Chip- Chakotay episode, and- MARIO: Wow, you even corrected his name! That's how bad this episode is. JENN: I know! Yeah, he hasn't earned his... beans. [crew laughs] MARIO: You gotta work for the beans! JENN: Yeah, exactly. And it's just, like, y'know. JIM: I'm just imagining that Blazing Saddles scene with all the guys around the campfire just farting. [crew laughs] LOU: So, the farting thing. I was gonna try and, like, not be so crude. But when it was the, uh, "turn me to the Wayafter" or whatever, and he flips him onto his stomach, I was like, he's gonna fart. [crew laughs] JIM: Yeah, he already shit his pants. LOU: All that gas is just gonna come straight out. [laughs] JENN: Oh yeah, it's true, that is a bad plan. Like, C'mon. Somebody wasn't thinking about that. LOU: It's their spirit leaving the- [crew laughs] JENN: Aaaahhh! Maybe it's a spiritual thing. It's like "you just gotta wait, wait for it... [poof] Okay". LOU: That's how you know how moral a person is. The size of their fart is their soul. JIM: [fart sound] [crew laughs] JENN: "He led a good life." [laughs] MARIO: "Just really breathe him in." JENN: "Yep." But as far as, like, basically, running his own episode. On the scheme of, like, single-person episodes, I would put this at a solid five out of... eleven. MARIO: ...hoo. [crew laughs] JENN: It's not his fault though! It's just the content. I mean, he did a good job. LOU: Well okay, so here's the thing. When you say "he", do you mean the actor or the character? 'Cause the character didn't have- Chakotay didn't do- JENN: I mean the actor. LOU: Yeah, yeah. Okay. MARIO: He was drugged up and on rails, like, there was nothing to do. JENN: Yeah! Chakotay was damsel if there ever was one on this episode. LOU: But yeah, no, I agree, the acting was good. JIM: Yeah. MARIO: I will also say, I think in the course of his being indoctrinated, his actions didn't seem totally out of character. Like, either they were tailoring the program to him as a personality, or that's just how he is, but like, he very quickly matched pace and tone with how they spoke, and what their religious practices, out of respect for them. I didn't watch it and think, oh, he's been brainwashed right there. Like, nothing stood out as a moment where he was compromised as a personality. Especially because he hallucinated the enemies' appearance. JENN: And he was a good candidate for this particular storyline because of his Maqui roots. Instead of, like, if it was Tuvok, he would have been like "this isn't logical. This isn't Starfleet. I'm just gonna sit here until somebody comes to get me." JIM: "I'm not taking sides in this." JENN: [laughs] Yep. "I'm just gonna hug a tree, you guys fight it out." MARIO: Could he have resisted it, though? If it's a mental manipulation with drugs? JENN: Well, we've seen Tuvok struggle with that before. MARIO: Yeah. JENN: Not with drugs, but... were those drugs?

MARIO: That's a very special Voyager episode. JENN: Yes. Did we do that one yet? Yeah we did, we did, the one with the serial killer. MARIO: Yeah, with Suder. LOU: That was less drugs and more emotional... ehh..... JENN: Yeah. But we've seen him- MARIO: He was literally given psychopathic tendencies, telepathically. LOU: Yeah. JENN: We've seen his mental state be compromised is basically the closest that I can come to it. MARIO: Yeah. So I don't think he'd be immune to it necessarily. JENN: Maybe not immune, but, I mean definitely- 
MARIO: He might see through the farce sooner. JENN: Chakotay was definitely off of the Star Trek plan- er, the Starfleet plan, at that point on the planet. MARIO: It's like "cool, I get to LARP!" JENN: It's like, would Janeway do this? I dunno. [laughs] I think she would struggle with it more. MARIO: Maybe. LOU: It's possible that this is just him being a really good anthropologist. [crew laughs] MARIO: He goes native very easily in the show. JENN: Yes, that's true. MARIO: Like the cabin episode. He's like "well, out of uniform we are." JENN: Yep. It's like he's just waiting for an opportunity. MARIO: We know he is. JENN: Yeah, maybe he is. MARIO: He's like "this Starfleet thing, I'm in way over my head." LOU: That would be kinda funny if Chakotay just sort of like falls into whatever environment he's in, and he just- he happens to be on a spaceship, so he's like "yeah, I guess I'm the first officer now." [crew laughs] LOU: Like if I just dropped him anywhere he'd be like "yeah, I guess I'm a Nazi now." JENN: "This is who I am now." MARIO: I like that he doesn't go for captain. He settles into the role that has nothing to do. JIM: It's like the Woody Allen movie Zelig about the guy who's the social chameleon. It's a mockumentary about a guy who supposedly can be dropped into any social situation and pretend to be- pretend to fit in. JENN: Hmm. JIM: The joke is that it's Woody Allen and he can't do shit. He's just an idiot. I thought it was a frickin' hilarious movie, but Woody Allen's a prick. JENN: Yeah, that's true. MARIO: Yeah, he's problematic at this point. JENN: Yeah. But I hadn't heard of that movie either. MARIO: No, I hadn't heard of it. JENN: Although that does sound like an interesting premise. JIM: It is. I thought it was very funny. JENN: Maybe it was a little bit more well-executed than this episode of Star Trek: Voyager. [laughs] JIM: Uhhhh, probably a little bit. A little bit better. JENN: Yep. MARIO: Makes you think a little more. JIM: [laughs] Yeah. About hatred. JENN: I mean yeah, it's kinda rich coming from the planet of white men with guns. [crew laughs] JIM: Yeah. LOU: White men with guns and one or two token ethnic children. JENN: Yes. Yeah. That's it though. JIM: There were adults. LOU: There were adults? JIM: Yeah. LOU: Okay. JENN: There was one child. MARIO: Yes. JENN: 'Cause of course there has to be a child. MARIO: To endear the village to Chakotay. JENN AND LOU: Mmhmm. JIM: To seduce Chakotay. LOU: That was- MARIO: Yeah, there were some vibes there that I did not like. JIM: Yeah, that was not appropriate. LOU: Yeah. MARIO: Like, SHE'S TWELVE. [crew laughs] LOU: Their species, the women don't actually fertilize- MARIO: I mean, she be of two dozen trips 'round the star! [crew laughs] JIM: One dozen. LOU: Two dozen?? MARIO: One dozen! JENN: Maybe it's a smaller star. JIM: You just doubled their age! MARIO: Sorry, went a little too- JIM: They're short years, so it's fine. JENN: Yes. MARIO: It's quick trips. JENN: Yep. MARIO: I did the math, it's half the days. JIM: [laughs] Yep. JENN: I think he's just a sensual person, and he just puts off that vibe all the time- LOU: Uuuuggghhhh JENN: -even if there's a child there. JIM: [laughs] Oh god. MARIO: I think it was because, in their effort to do the dumb vocabulary stuff, instead of asking what he wanted, they asked what he "craved". [crew laughs] MARIO: It gave off a very very bad vibe. LOU: Yeah, when she- JENN: I hope Robert Beltran doesn't listen to this podcast. MARIO: And they said "crave" more than once. LOU: Specifically it was that instance where everybody leaves, and it's nighttime, there's the fire, and he's got flowers around his neck, and then the twelve year-old girl walks in- JIM: -comes back- LOU: -and she's like "do you CRAVE anything else?" MARIO: "Like entrapment." [laughs] LOU: And, like, all of us groaned. JENN: Yeah, that's true. Yep. Nobody- somebody was not thinking about that. LOU: Yeah. JENN: I wonder if they were filming it and they were like "guys, maybe", and it was like "nope, nope, too late." [laughs] MARIO: "This tone is perfect!" JIM: The writers had already been paid. JENN: "Yeah, we can't think of anything else, so this is what's happening." MARIO: [laughs] "The checks are cashed." JENN: Yep. 'Cause I guess if it was- if it was an older woman, we would assume there were romantic vibes there. JIM: Yeah. LOU: I think that would have been kind of interesting. JENN: It would have been, yeah. JIM: Yeah, it would have been more interesting. MARIO: It would have gotten him in more with the natives, like, at that point. JIM: Yeah. JENN: Yeah, it's kind of- [laughs] if this was a Tom episode they would have gone that way. LOU: Yeah. JIM: They would have shot that bird-person right there! [crew laughs] MARIO: "Oh, you want someone with feathers, got it." JENN: Yeah, he would have just been- LOU: I guess the complication with having it be an adult woman, and having it be, like, the potential love plotline, is then it gets really close to that- is it the Harry episode? Where he gets, like, a love virus and falls in love- JENN: Yes. LOU: -with this one alien, and all of a sudden- 'cause if you're being indoctrinated, there's a bunch of chemicals, then it complicates the emotion to the episode. JIM: Of course. LOU: And this is, like, hate, and they can't have love be in there, because then that'll just get too- I don't know, I feel like maybe they just thought it would be too much mixed messaging. JIM: They played at the love thing though. Like, he was not necessarily a father figure to the girl, but like, they were kind of implying in that direction. And like, her grandfather was still- her mother's father was still around. [crew laughs] Mario: Please, Jim! "Mother's father!" JIM: Yeah, I'm sorry, I need to use the correct terminology here. And- but like, they were implying all this stuff about his role in her life. LOU: I mean, yeah, but I think it's a different sort of relationship, and with different sort of potentially narrative problems. MARIO: I could also headcanon that to being the program tailoring itself to Chakotay, who is a family man and believes in protecting the people, and- JENN: Yeah, like of course he'd want to protect this little girl. MARIO: Yeah. So they created a figure that he would want to... LOU: So if Tom showed up, there would just be a village full of half-naked women. MARIO: Probably. JENN: Mmhmm, mmhmm. LOU: "You have to defend the naked boobies!" MARIO: Save Castle Anthrax. JENN: Yep, and they'd all be dressed like rockabilly people. MARIO: Oh god! It'd just be like 50s pinup girls! JENN: Yep! LOU: Tom wouldn't even go to that final fight. He wouldn't even try to get to the communicator! Just be like "I guess this is my life now!" MARIO: [laughs] Computer's like "he never left the village scene! We don't know what to do, the program's not built for this." JIM: "So wait, where do I sign up for this?" JENN: "Gams! Gams!" MARIO: It's all gams! JIM: Oh god! LOU: Gams for days! [crew laughs] MARIO: Literally! JENN: [laughs] Planet Gamtron. MARIO: Gamulon. JIM: I'm done with this. LOU: Sooooo... MARIO: Luckily it wasn't about Paris. JIM: We're all lucky. [transition theme plays] LOU: I feel like, for every episode, I want to at least point out the characters that didn't appear at all. [crew laughs] JIM: Just see who's on vacation that week. JENN: In memoriam. MARIO: 'Cause they got, like, one Ready Room scene and one Sickbay scene. LOU: Yeah, so like: Harry, B'Elanna... Seven? This is season- wait, season four? MARIO: This is season four. LOU: Okay, so Seven. JENN: She's there somewhere. LOU: And then... I think that's it. MARIO: Did we get Neelix? JENN: Neelix was in there barely. LOU: The last second. JIM: Yeah, Neelix was in the last scene. MARIO: Oh that's right, he shows up in Sickbay. LOU: Yeah. JENN: Mmhmm, I mean- MARIO: Being the diplomat. JIM: Yeah, aside from Chakotay, it's Janeway and Tuvok that have the most lines, I think. JENN: Yeah. LOU: And Tom gets, like, one scene. [laughs] Jim just eye-rolled. JIM: [laughs] MARIO: So Lou, as our resident Tuvok appreciator and expert, how did the Tuvok scenes go? LOU: They were wonderful. [crew laughs] They were the best part of the episode. No, I dunno, I kinda, y'know- I didn't think Tuvok acted the most rationally when he- er, logically, when he was confronting Chakotay. 'Cause he wasn't doing anything defensive? And- JIM: Chakotay had a [censored] rifle. LOU: Yeah. JIM: And he was brainwashed, and unpredictable. LOU: Yeah, but- MARIO: "I'll reason with him! This will work!" JENN: Yeah, you'd think you'd wanna present yourself as, like, somebody who's used to seeing you, i.e. in your uniform. MARIO: Was that why the guy wouldn't take the risk of being able to overcome psychotropic drugs with speech, and I would just stun him, and let the Doctor sort it out. JIM: Yep. LOU: Yeah. So, y'know, on the scale of, like, Neelix to Tuvok, [crew laughs] the logic of the episode for Tuvok is probably, like, Harry. [crew laughs] MARIO: Also, questioning a vulcan's logic is fightin' words, I think. LOU: Oh, oh yeah, I accept this, but- MARIO: It's besmirching their honor. JIM: You know, I could easily imagine Neelix making those decisions. [crew laughs] Just beaming down and trying to talk to him. MARIO: "I'll just have a good chat with him." JENN: How freaking bizarre would it be if it was Neelix that was the one that went down there? MARIO: "I brought your favorite: leola root stew! To jog your memory!" JENN: Yeah. Oh man. LOU: Actually, that wouldn't be too bad- well if it was something that he liked smelling then that would be pretty good, 'cause smell is a great trigger for memories. MARIO: Yeah! JIM: Yeah, but they didn't take advantage of any of that. LOU: Noooo, no they didn't. JENN: Yeah, like you'd think you'd find the person that's closest to him, who I would assume would be B'Elanna or Janeway, and send them. But no, it's like "let's send the Fun Police." [crew laughs] JIM: Your face kinda lit up when you said "Janeway". JENN: Then there would have been a ten-minute scene, in slow motion- MARIO: Yeah, how was the ten-minute scene in Sickbay for you? JENN: Oh man, there's not a whole lot to discuss in that ship front. MARIO: 'Considering that's typically why you pick an episode, how did that hold up for you? JENN: Yeahhhh, there wasn't anything of note. LOU: But what if Janeway goes to get Chakotay, and he doesn't recognize her at first, and the only way she can bring him out of it is with a kiss? [crew gasps] JENN: That's the angst that I'm here for! And maybe I'll have to write that fic! MARIO: That's the fic [laughs] that replaces this whole episode. JENN: See, I would be so into that. LOU: Except for the fact that she looks like one of those- JIM: Predator monsters. LOU: Yeah, she looks like a [censored] Predator monster. So she literally has to hold him down in order to kiss him. [crew laughs] MARIO: "It's the only way!" JIM: And just, like, pokes him and stabs him with her face-spines. "Nooooo! Noooooo!" JENN: Oh man, talk about confused boners. [crew laughs] MARIO: "I'm into it, whyyyyy? I'm everything I hate!" JENN: Then he's gonna have to make some big modifications to his Holodeck program. JIM: Yep. MARIO: For the better. LOU: But- the scene where Tuvok does talk to him, one of the things that I did like about that was the slowly-changing the voice to bring it in line? I thought that was a nice touch, and you can kinda sorta- it works. JIM: It wasn't anywhere near Lord of the Rings, but it was okay. JENN: Right. LOU: Yeah, definitely. MARIO: The actor-alien did a decent Tuvok impersonation. 'Cause they had lines sync up. JENN: Yeah, that's true. MARIO: Got the mannerisms down. LOU: The standing-perfectly-still. [crew laughs] MARIO: Yeah! Classic Tuvok, that's what I always say! JENN: "Just stand there, right there." Yeah, it was no Lord of the Rings, that's- that much is painfully obvious. MARIO: If one thing can be said about this episode: it was no Lord of the Rings. JENN: Fact. MARIO: In that one way. JIM: At least. MARIO AND JENN: Yeah. JENN: Man, if Janeway had shown up like Galadriel- JIM: Shit would have been over. MARIO: With light glowing behind her? JENN: Yeah! LOU: Hair flowing. JENN: That's how I usually see her, also, by the way. In case you were wondering how I watch this show. MARIO: Oh, I didn't. [crew laughs] MARIO: "I am Janeway the White." JENN: "That's what they used to call me." LOU: Oh my god. MARIO: They'd be pretty big dicks if they called her "Janeway the Gray". [crew laughs] JIM: Yeah, that's rude. That is rude. MARIO: Yeah. JENN: Yeah, Tuvok is way older than her. MARIO: Mmhmm, triple digits. LOU: He's got grandkids. JENN: Yep. JIM: Vulcan don't crack. JENN: Mmhmm, that's true. JIM: Sorry. [crew laughs] [transition theme plays] MARIO: So about all the other great things that happened in this episode... JENN: Yeah. Man, it would have been so cool if they made that a Janeway and Chakotay moment, but they didn't. LOU: Was this- in terms of, like, the chronology of the ship, like, at a certain point, they kinda quashed it. Like- MARIO: I think they stopped exploring it until Shattered, for awhile. LOU: But that was, like, yeah, so that's season... JENN: Oh, you mean the ship? MARIO: Yeah. JENN: Um- LOU: Not Voyager itself, but the ship-romance- MARIO: The possibility of their relationship. LOU: Yeah. JENN: The "apostrophe-'ship". LOU: Yeah. JENN: I mean, that kind of got concluded at the end of season five, didn't it? LOU: So there's still potential baiting. JENN: There's still tension there, but yeah, like they missed that opportunity to really crank it into twelfth-gear. MARIO: Up to warp 10? JENN: [laughs] Yep. JIM: [singing] Salamander Babies... LOU: The episode that we don't speak of, and you're like "why wasn't it Chakotay piloting?" [crew laughs] MARIO: That's why we can never discuss it. JENN: Missed opportunities, missed opportunities. MARIO: The Chakotay Story. LOU: Tom takes Chakotay and they still have little salamander babies, and everybody's like "what just happened?" MARIO: "How? Ugh, don't worry about it." [crew laughs] JENN: "They're my pets." JIM: That's gross, they're his kids! MARIO: "Something's gotta be done about your kids." JENN: "Your kids, Chakotay!" JIM: "Marty! It's your kids!" MARIO: "They're salamanders!" [crew laughs] JIM: "It's gross!" MARIO: "Don't do that!" JENN: "It's very natural!" JIM: "Perfectly normal, perfectly healthy." MARIO: "When a man and a woman go to warp 10 together..." [crew laughs] JIM: It all starts when two newlycules fall in love. JENN: Yeah. That's- JIM: That's it, I think we're done. MARIO: Yeah. The moment we cover the forbidden episode, we're done talking about this one! JENN: Yep, there's nothing more bizarre. Yeah, we don't talk about that episode, 'cause it does not exist. MARIO: Nope. We invented that, on our own. JENN: Mmhmm. LOU: All right, so is there anything else that we want to talk about from this episode? MARIO: I don't think anything else happened! LOU: Jim pointed out that the [censored] guns that they were using were French. [crew laughs] JIM: Yeah. MARIO: Were they from the hirogen Holodeck episode? Just reused props. JIM: No. No, they're modern. Yeah, they're... JENN: Yeah, you'd think that he- well I guess that's part of the brainwashing or whatever, but you'd think that a Starfleet officer would react more to actual, like, ballistic weapons. MARIO: Maybe that's what he hallucinated. JENN: Yeah, maybe. MARIO: Maybe they were just, like, wooden props. JENN: "Remember the good ol' days when we used bullets instead of laser beams?" JIM: No, they- at least once, Chakotay fired it and a shell casing was shot out. MARIO: Yeah, but they also acknowledged that a lot of that was happening in his head. Like the training scenes and other people weren't real. JIM: Oh, I thought you were talking about, like, on set. MARIO: Oh no no, sorry. On set they used some kinda prop, or- I dunno. JIM: Yeah, I'm pretty sure they were FAMAS. But yeah, they are French. They're a little different. LOU: Yeah, I got nothing else to add to this episode. JIM: Yeah, I don't think there's- MARIO: I really hated the way they talked, and they kept doing that. And so I hated them the whole time. JENN: Mmhmm, the whole time. It would have been so much- MARIO: So I never trusted them exactly, even if I guess I kinda appreciate having a twist. Like, I never liked them. LOU: So, Predator monsters though: they talked normal. JIM: No they don't. MARIO: No, they also had the same mannerisms. At least- LOU: Well they said "nemesis", but the [censored] guy who's like "did I say something?" MARIO: I think at least in the training program, they spoke the same as the Vori. LOU: I was talking about the diplomat. MARIO: Right, I meant the nemesis characters he fought against also had eloquent speech. JIM: I think in the transporter room, it kinda sounded like they were talking like the Vori. But you're right, in sickbay I think it did sound more normal English. LOU: Yeah, I think it was normal- at least in sickbay, I don't remember the transporter room scene. But in sickbay, he was using normal speech, and the thing that triggered Chakotay was the word "nemesis". MARIO: Yeah, and his appearance. JENN: Yeah. MARIO: I think they also could have just been inconsistent. Like, even when he spoke to the Vori characters, it wasn't always consistently done. LOU: Mmhmm. MARIO: Especially when they couldn't find a good synonym. JIM: Writing in Star Trek inconsistent? I'm astounded. JENN: Perish the thought. MARIO: [laughs] Writing directly from the thesaurus is stilted and inconsistent? JIM: Yeah. While watching the episode, we were thinking of writing an algorithm that would translate classic novels into, like, third-synonym speech. I still wanna do this. [crew laughs] JENN: Linked below! MARIO: Translate English to Vori. JENN: Yeah. No, their speech patterns were really annoying and stupid, that it would have been a lot more of an impactful episode if they didn't use them. MARIO: Yeah, if they'd dropped that entirely, it would have worked so much better. Like it would have worked better toward their intended story, and brainwashing... JENN: Yeah, 'cause it just takes you out of it. MARIO: It's super distracting. JIM: Yeah, it really is distracting. JENN: Yeah, 'cause you spend the whole episode going "you guys talk stupid" rather than being into the story. MARIO: For a kinda weak premise to begin with, it doesn't help them at all. JIM: Yeah. And additionally, it was difficult for me to take them seriously at all. It was so bad. 
JENN: Yeah, like, they can talk about their spiritual practice of turning people over after they die in a normal voice, and that would have been like, oh, okay, I get it. JIM: It could easily have been very compelling. JENN: Yes, yes. MARIO: They undercut themselves every time. JENN: Yeah, or you see the simple village scene with the little girl that gives you a flower, where you think, aww, that's so cute, but then- JIM: They talk like dumb shits. Sorry! [crew laughs] JENN: Yes! It's like, I hate all of you! MARIO: It takes so much effort for you to talk like this! Just speak! JIM: I guess I'm not really gonna mind when they all get exterminated. Just shovel 'em in the box cars! MARIO: Sorry, "nullified". JIM: Whatever! MARIO AND LOU: "Nullied". JIM: Extermination camps though! MARIO: That was my favorite part though, when the little girl started using slang of the words. [crew laughs] She's like "they got nullied". Oh, so they do know how to say shorter words that carry same meaning! Okay! They're just being pricks! [crew laughs] JENN: They're describing the idea of camouflage, and like a whole phrase... just say "camouflage". MARIO: We borrowed a word from French for that, to make it easier to say. JENN: Just say "camouflage". MARIO: Allamaraine. JENN: Dumb shits. [laughs] JIM: ...god damn it! JENN: What happened? MARIO: I said "allamaraine". Then Jim recognized it and hated himself for it. JIM: Yep. That's like "LOST", that's the podcast's MARIO: It's our constant. [laughs] JIM: Yeah. LOU: I like how when you said "god damn it", you hit the [censored] table, and I'm looking at Mario's computer, and I just saw this giant spike of sound. [crew laughs] JIM: I'm just gonna break someone's eardrum. Sorry, Listener Dan! I'm not paying your medical bills, but I'm sorry. JENN: Yep. Caution, headphone users. MARIO: Welp, no more listeners. They're all deaf now. [crew laughs] JENN: We're gonna have to do captions. [crew laughs] LOU: You waved your hand, and I was like: Braille? MARIO: Sign language? For podcasts? JENN: Maybe we should transcribe them. MARIO: We should. Go for it, that's a lot of work. JIM: I honestly don't think we're gonna get any more listeners. Or readers. JENN: Yeah, I dunno. MARIO: No, definitely no more readers. LOU: We don't have text for them to read! I mean, except for Jenn's fic. JENN: If we get a sponsor, Chipotle, wink wink nudge nudge, I will transcribe them. MARIO: We're waiting. JENN: 'Cause I'm not gonna do for free what I do to get paid every day. Yeah. JIM: Good policy. MARIO: Mmhmm, mmhmm. JIM: Joker's dad told me that. Something like that. JENN: Yeah, yeah yeah. There's also just knives and lint in my pockets. [crew laughs] MARIO: All right then. [transition theme plays] MARIO: This episode sucked. [crew laughs] JIM: See you next time! JENN: You're welcome! I know how to choose 'em! MARIO: They can't all be club bangers, sorry. JENN: They can't all be the one with Michael What's-His-Face. JIM: Burnham?

MARIO: Scott? JENN: No. LOU: The Archangel? [crew laughs]

MARIO: We all went very different places. JENN: The one with the weird dream and the fear demon? MARIO: Michael McKean. JENN: Yes! JIM: Oh! JENN: They can't all be that one. LOU: "The Thaw". MARIO: None of us hit the Voyager one. [crew laughs] JIM: The first episode we did! JENN: They can't all be "The Thaw"! Sorry. Although I wish they could be. [laughs] JIM: Do you remember how Harry, his fears were just, like, surgery? [crew laughs] Just, like, getting old? MARIO: And being a baby?
 JIM: Yeah, the most generic [censored] fears. JENN: Yeah. LOU: Why does he have a fear of being a baby? MARIO: Being helpless, I think. JIM: Probably. JENN: Yeah, maybe that's- LOU: I feel like there are better ways of depicting that than turning into a [censored] baby. JENN: That's true. LOU: Babies don't give a [censored] about anything. MARIO: It's also not really a realistic fear, or one he's really going to encounter that much. Oh no, I might turn into a baby! [crew laughs] JIM: I like how this is now a "Thaw" podcast. MARIO: We may have covered this. JENN: He's already facing a murderous clown, that ticks a bunch of boxes off of mine. MARIO: Yeah, wouldn't it just be a recursive self-fear- [crew laughs] JIM: Michael McKean's character just grows and grows and grows and grows. MARIO: And he's like, oh shit, I'm cascading! LOU: So, time out. You're like, it's not a very realistic fear. To be fair, there's an episode where Ken has a realistic fear of turning into a baby, 'cause she's traveling backwards through time and she becomes a [censored] zygote, or whatever the [censored] they're called. MARIO: So it happened to one person, one time, ever. JENN: Oh yeah. That's a legitimate fear. LOU: Yeah. One person who's on the [censored] crew. MARIO: She's also a psychic alien. Like, she has different things happen to her. LOU: Don't try and confine Harry! [laughs] He's capable! MARIO: You believe in his ability to turn into a baby. JENN: I do! JIM: Lou: is he? LOU: I- shut up! He somehow managed to play the clarinet! I dunno! What else did he do? MARIO: That's it. JIM: On a warship. JENN: He tags around with Tom. MARIO: His best friend. JENN: His best friend in the whole world. MARIO: And they're definitely both each other's best friends. JENN: Who would do anything for him. JIM: No, who would do anything for the Whatever Twins. JENN: Yes. LOU: Oh man, what were we talking about? JENN: "The Thaw". MARIO: "The Thaw". So this has been our episode discussing "The Thaw". JENN: Do you remember "The Thaw"? I do! MARIO: I 'member! JENN: "I 'member!" [laughs] MARIO: God, we're having nostalgia for our previous episodes. JENN: [laughs] 'Member the giant from Twin Peaks? MARIO AND JENN: I 'member! LOU: You guys can't see the look on our faces, but- MARIO: 'Member Lwaxana? I 'member. JIM: Remember The Rock? JENN: I 'member. MARIO: I remember that. JENN: That was only last week! LOU: Was it? JENN: Well, last time. MARIO: Uhhhh, let's not call them "weeks". So, next time, we'll be discussing... the very next episode, 'cause it looked really fun.Season 4, episode 5: "Revulsion". LOU: Cool. JIM: That was very fitting on Netflix when we saw that coming up next. MARIO: I was looking through the list just now and I was like, that's a good episode, oh, it's the next one, okay! [laughs] JIM: Nice. JENN: Thanks very much for listening. We hope you enjoyed it. If you have questions or comments, you can email them to us at hellocomputer@salamanderbabies.com. Hang on, I have something in my eye. [crew laughs] JIM: It's all right. LOU: Is she doing it in one? JIM: Yep! MARIO: That's the rule. JENN: Um, you can visit us on the Tumblrs at, uh, salamanderbabies.tumblr.com? MARIO: Are you waiting for a confirmation? 'Cause that's the URL. [crew laughs] JIM: We're all nodding. Yep. JENN: And at Facebook at facebook.com/salamanderbabies, and on Twitter @salamandertrek. JIM: Yes. JENN: Aha! MARIO: This can't end until you sign us off. JIM: Yeah, you have to sign us off. [laughs] JENN: Um... [whispers] how do I do that? MARIO: How do you end holodeck programs? JIM: [whispers] "Computer, end program." JENN: Oh! Computer, end program. [crew laughs and applauds] [hologram power-down sound plays]